Huh, I don't think I would agree on the hipster take on SPN's class stuff. I think the class stuff is flawed, but I don't think it's meant to be ironic - I think it's pretty honestly rooted in Kripke's own blue-collar(ish?) background. I think where it's glorified it's more from a place of honest pride, not any kind of ironic "isn't this coolness".

Somebody did a really thorough series on how class is (or is not) presented on the show; I'll see if I can remember where that was. It was, to my mind, expecting a little more realism form the show than I think is possible, but it was still interesting.

My main critique of class on SPN is how the "victims" seem to be largely middle to upper middle class - increasingly so in S2 & S3. I'm saying that just off the cuff, so I could be wrong, but it seemed like in S1 they encountered a more diverse range of people, socio-economically speaking, and it made the show more interesting to me.

I think it's pretty honestly rooted in Kripke's own blue-collar(ish?) background.

Hmm... see, this whole thing sprung out of me seeing that he went to USC film and going "haha, goddamn, I know what some of those USC film bitches are like!" but, I mean... it's entirely possible the culture was completely different than he went to what it is now. Hipster values HAVE changed since the 90s, after all. Or maybe he just wasn't the average kind of person who goes there, idk.

My main critique of class on SPN is how the "victims" seem to be largely middle to upper middle class - increasingly so in S2 & S3.

That was part of the thing I was thinking the ironic hipster take would explain, actually. But like... this is so not one of the areas I could talk about. I am fine when let loose with discussing racial and gender stuff, am fine with political stuff, am fine with ~artsy~ stuff, but meta on hipsterism? Noooo waaaaayyyy. Like, maybe it's not ironic hipsterism? Maybe it's the new sincerity, idk.

I'd be interested in that meta if you could find it. I think the reason I want meta on this is that I feel like the series class views are confusingly coded. Like, on the one hand, they keep doing all these obvious things to make Dean and Sam seem working class, but SO MANY of the subtler cues scream "white upper-middle!" at me. And tbh, I think if it was more truthfully coded as blue-collar, I wouldn't even be able to watch and enjoy the show (elitism, lol!).

Also, I noticed in the last episode that Dean totally has googly eyes stuck onto his cellphone. WTF, DEAN, WTF. (Alternately: WTF, PROPS DEPARTMENT, WTF.)

But before he went to USC, he was from middle-class (not sure if middle-middle or lower-middle) Ohio - he's talked a lot (or used to) about wanting the show to reflect the world he grew up in; that's why it was so important to him to have the music and the car as core parts of the show.

I feel like the series class views are confusingly coded

I strongly suspect this is 1) Kripke accomodating the network in order to keep the show on the air, 2) multiple writers with different class experiences, 3) the difficulty of realistically expressing class issue on TV in a society that can't really even acknowledge that we HAVE classes.

Did you ever watch Veronica Mars? That's another show that went from being really explicitly about class to making class issues completely invisible. I've no idea how much of that change was pushed by the CW vs. part of Rob Thomas's own fuckerwittery, but it's interesting that it happened there too.

Dean totally has googly eyes stuck onto his cellphone

I love him, jehnt. I really do.

1) Kripke accomodating the network in order to keep the show on the air, 2) multiple writers with different class experiences, 3) the difficulty of realistically expressing class issue on TV in a society that can't really even acknowledge that we HAVE classes.

I should have added a 4) here, which is that Kripke has changed classes himself (economically speaking), and of course that impacts how he views & experiences both classes. (I can't believe I forgot this, since class transition is a huge part of my own experience and I am completely fascinated with how other people go through it).

But I still think it's mostly #1 - the network keeping him down.

Yeah, I thought class transition could have been playing a part in it too. I don't know much about that though since, well, I just don't. Sounds fascinating though. (I actually think the reason I'm so crap at examining the class issues is because I'm firmly white upper-middle and don't know many people at all who aren't, which doesn't exactly give me a broad base of experience or understanding. Like... I've read books and newspaper articles about the lower classes, but a theoretical understanding =/= a practical one.)

Yeah, VM pushed class issues out in the later seasons but they also more or less pushed the lower class characters out too, so I didn't feel as confused about it as I do with SPN. (Which is not to say I thought it was okay... they marginalized my favorite characters. Totally lame, show, totally lame!)

And yeah, I've seen Kripke talk about how important it is to have that stuff represented, which is why I brought up breakaway sects of ironic hipsterism such as the new sincerity. idk, I like to think there's some thought going into their confusing class representations (especially since the confusingness really only seems to come from the Winchesters; everyone else mostly seems to be coded properly, and if it was issues like writing/network pressure, you'd think they would be equally all over the place). Blah trying to do meta on my first watching of a show really sucks because, like, I can't see the whole picture OR pick out little details yet because I'm still just trying to figure out the plot and such.

Dean Winchester is just a big lame squishy. THE GOOGLY EYES PROVED IT.

My god, I'm spamming you. Can you tell I'm interested in class issues?

Here are the posts I was thinking of: a series (http://vee-fic.livejournal.com/tag/underclass?style=mine) by vee_fic and one (http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/821667.html?style=mine) by coffeandink. I remember not being in total agreement with either of them but they are both very thoughtful on the subject.

And now I suppose I should get some work done.

Spamming me is totally okay! I'm interested in learning about class issues because, as I commented above, I don't know all that much. Thanks for those links!

And hee, you go do work while I go to class and we can all be productive and shit!