jehnt
more ramblings about supernatural 
19th-Aug-2008 07:51 pm
So I kind of love how every parent in Supernatural is a really great parent. They're all rather competent and with it, even in dire and unforeseen situations like BEING ATTACKED BY GHOSTS/DEMONS/MONSTERS, and often despite being a single parent. Yeah, true, some of this probably is because of the sexism in the show (most of these parents are single mothers) but... I'd prefer it to seeing BAD parents, lol. John Winchester is like the worst parent in the show so far (though I hear he becomes awesome later). But the show's message seems to be: PARENTS, THEY'RE PRETTY AWESOME. Also, of course, this: SIBLINGS, THEY'RE THE BEST EVER, EVEN WHEN THEY'RE ANNOYING. Trufax, Supernatural, trufax.

In fact, the sibling relationship is such that I just CANNOT ship Sam and Dean, despite the fact that I know certain portions of my flist go explodey of Sam/Dean goodness. I just... I know I'm all crazy about the Narnia incest and whatnot, so you'd THINK I could stoop to shipping Sam and Dean, but it just squicks me hardcore. I am so much more into them just being brothers and BFFs and stuff. They have a dynamic I like on the show and I see absolutely no reason to change it.

Also, Dean Winchester? Really just wants to get married and have babies. Well, at this point in the show, he wants to 1) find his father, 2) get married, 3) have babies. Because Dean is all about FAMILY. Despite what he says about hating suburban living and being tied down. But, you see, Dean probably imagines (in his frequent daydreams about this subject) that he, his wife, and his adorable mop-headed little children will all live in Metallicar and drive around hunting demons. He thinks that he'll go hunt demons and bring his kids along to teach them everything he knows, like his father did for him and Sam, and his wife will hold down the fort. Which is actually a car. Which means that, essentially, Dean wants his wife to spend ALL OF HER TIME in the car. Which is a pretty stupid idea. But Dean probably didn't really think it through, and ALSO probably conflates his wife with Metallicar to some extent, because that's the only non-Sam-or-ParentWinchester thing he has ever loved, so this is... very Deanlike, really. He also probably can't imagine her hunting with them simply because his template is father + kids, and he was young enough when he lost his mother that he's not really sure what a mom is supposed to DO other thank take care of kids and the house (and, canonically, Dean has no friends other than Sam, so it's not like he's really observed normal mom behavior from his friend's moms, or anything, so he just knows what he got from tv, which is usually pretty unrealistic what with all the glamorous sitcom moms with the fat slob husbands and whatnot). Still, I imagine Dean would somehow end up marrying either a high-powered career woman, who would let him roam the country hunting things as long as he came back home frequently, or else Jo, who would obviously go hunting with him when she wasn't haring off on her own to prove that she was better than him. BECAUSE I SHIP JO/DEAN, SHUT UP, YOU KNOW YOU LOVE IT. Basically I just ship Dean with anyone who I feel kind of baffles him. I'm not sure why.

Sam, on the other hand, just wants to live in a regular house instead of out of a car, and doesn't care so much about the wife or the babies or anything, as long as he fucking LIVES IN ONE PLACE. That doesn't mean you can't go on vacations. It just means THERE IS A HOUSE, AND YOU LIVE IN IT, AND MAYBE OWN A TV. Being stable enough to own a nice big television is one of Sam Winchester's Goals In Life, which he has conveniently outlined in kind of girly handwriting in a notebook he keeps lists in. BECAUSE I WILL NEVER NOT BELIEVE SAM WINCHESTER MAKES LOTS OF LISTS ABOUT EVERYTHING.

Ahem. So. Ten episodes in. Sam and Dean are girlier than I am. Also manlier. I'm not sure how this works, exactly, but they seem to pull it off.
jehnt: (btvs - willow - weapons)
Comments 
20th-Aug-2008 01:17 am (UTC)
I may come back and spam you with more supernatural thoughts later, but just on the fly:

*Clings* You and I can be Sekrit Non=Wincesters together. I have no probs with incest ships generally (i will take a serving of Malfoycest any time!) but I Just Can't in SPN. I can see only if it's really dark and terrible, but I don't like to read anything that terrible for Sam & Dean, I feel like they get there fair of share of Suck in canon. I just feel like there's no way an incestuous relationship with Sam doesn't destroy Dean; it goes against the Prime Directive. And I'm with you, their relationship just as it is is so complex and loving and entangled, it doesn't need to be anything but what it is.

And I never ever want to say anything about it fannishly, partly because I don't want any one to feel like to they have to defend Wincest-- I mean, dude, whatever floats your boat is okey dokey, I'm not the Judge of You -- but mostly because I am 100% Not Open To Discussion on the subject. Sam & Dean, yes. Sam/Dean? DOES NOT COMPUTE.
20th-Aug-2008 01:18 am (UTC)
And I am just going to let those typos stand, how 'bout that?
20th-Aug-2008 03:02 am (UTC)
I just feel like there's no way an incestuous relationship with Sam doesn't destroy Dean; it goes against the Prime Directive.

Yes, yes, this is EXACTLY how I feel about it. Even if Sam wanted it, Dean would KNOW it was wrong and would consider it his responsibility to keep Sam from it, and if he failed it would be Very Bad for Dean, because he would feel like he was letting not just himself and Sam down, but also their parents. And we know how weird Dean gets about parents. I also kind of think Sam/Dean is weaker in some ways than Sam&Dean because there are so many ways it could go wrong, fracture, and fall apart. I find the claustrophobic sibling dynamic intense enough as it is WITHOUT adding the screwed-upness that sex would bring. I think it's actually part of the reason Dean is such a hound -- he's NEVER had any normal social interaction, probably especially with girls, so to him there are "Winchester people" and then "other people," and I don't think he can properly conceive of how to act with other people, so he just slots himself into whatever role he thinks he's supposed to have and then rolls with it (you can see this even in just the ease with which he lies to people versus Sam's initial reaction to be more truthful). I honestly think the spn fanmix I made a while back (http://jehnt.livejournal.com/44221.html) somehow manages to capture all this, which is pretty amazing since I bet I'd only seen a dozen episodes from the middle/end of season 2 at the point when I made it.

And I never ever want to say anything about it fannishly, partly because I don't want any one to feel like to they have to defend Wincest-- I mean, dude, whatever floats your boat is okey dokey, I'm not the Judge of You -- but mostly because I am 100% Not Open To Discussion on the subject. Sam & Dean, yes. Sam/Dean? DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Okay, honestly, whenever I see Sam/Dean shippers I wonder if they have siblings (or rather A Sibling, because I think having "siblings" and having "a sibling" are two very, very different things in terms of interaction). Because I think I like the Sam&Dean interaction because it seems like true sibling interaction to me... i.e., it kind of reminds me of me and my brother except they have crazy family issues and we don't, but if we DID have crazy family issues and no normal lives and were completely isolated from other people and had to go on insane cross-country drives to save our family from demons, I kind of imagine we would be like Sam and Dean. Obviously in this scenario I am Dean, because I'm the older and cooler sibling who has a nice car, and my brother would be Sam because he is tall and lanky and would have to let me pick the music (really, actually, me=Dean, brotherman=Sam works in SO MANY ways... except imo we're a lot more normal, lol). And so Sam/Dean just disturbs me because of that. So basically I guess I can't stand Wincest because on the Jehnt-o-meter of Realistic Sibling Relationships, SPN scores pretty well, so I just can't imagine them going there.

otoh, recently I liked [livejournal.com profile] musesfool's fic I've Got Some Beer and the Highway's Free (http://musesfool.livejournal.com/1608201.html), which is Sam/Dean but it's Dean post-hell and he's all screwed up... and it works somehow. Probably because [livejournal.com profile] musesfool wrote it, lol. (She actually made a post mentioning incest and linking to this discussion (http://seperis.livejournal.com/639164.html), which has some interesting meta on it in the comments.)
20th-Aug-2008 01:36 pm (UTC)
Completely tangentially, people say this: you can see this even in just the ease with which he lies to people versus Sam's initial reaction to be more truthful a lot, but Sam is a much better liar than Dean is. Sam lied to Jess for at least the 18 months they were together (and to everyone at Stanford for nearly four years). Dean is good at charming people and putting on the facade that he thinks they want to see, but only for the short-term - his essential Dean-ness always leaks out the sloppy seams. He would be terrible at the long con, which is where Sam excels. Sam puts on other lives - he's scary good at being the FBI guy in Nightshifter - because that's what he's always done to fit in. Dean doesn't want to lie to the people close to him (see Route 666), and he has no problem clueing people in when he thinks they need to know, whereas Sam is all, "it's better if they're kept in the dark" (see Nightshifter again).

*waves hand*

Anyway. I think they do really well at showing the sibling relationship on the show, and I don't ship them (I've rambled on a lot about why in my LJ so I won't subject you to it here), but I can see why people do (and sometimes they just... go there when you don't think they will when you're writing. It's ... disconcerting. I mean, beer and the highway was pretty fraught with UST, but I wasn't actually expecting them to kiss). I just really don't like it when the sexual relationship is written as this romantic, revelatory thing, like, "I'm in love with you! OMG! *hearts and flowers*" because that just strikes me as wrong for the relationship: they already know they love each other more than anything, and also, they're *brothers* not boyfriends, and the brotherly relationship should always be paramount, even if they are having sex - they could give up the sex, but I don't think they could ever - would ever want to - give up being brothers.

I mean, the show is All About family relationships, and it does them really well, I think, that push-pull/love-hate dynamic, where you may want to kill your sibling/parent, but nobody else is allowed to even look at them funny, and also how at first it's so easy to just fall back into old roles of being the sullen teenager or the peacemaker, or whatever it was you were the last time you were all together.

I don't think anybody sticks around for the monster plots, you know? It's all about the Winchester family dynamics.

Also? A big fat YES to this: Dean Winchester? Really just wants to get married and have babies. He TOTALLY does. Which is one reason I don't ship him with Sam. (except when Sam is a girl, and oh god, I know! but I own my kinks.) He would totally ROCK at being a dad, as long as he could keep hunting and come back to his family at regular intervals. Sigh. And Sam's family would live right next door, or they'd have a big Winchester family compound somewhere, and there would be lots of kids and a dog and it would be AWESOME.

Ahem.
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25th-Aug-2008 07:37 am (UTC)
He would be terrible at the long con, which is where Sam excels.

YES! I didn't know how to explain this or fit it in to what I was saying but you did it perfectly.

Dean doesn't want to lie to the people close to him (see Route 666), and he has no problem clueing people in when he thinks they need to know, whereas Sam is all, "it's better if they're kept in the dark" (see Nightshifter again)

While Nightshifter is the episode that got me into the show (HELLO MOST APPROPRIATE USE OF STYX EVER), the only episodes I'd seen up until I bought the first season on DVD last week were like, from Nightshifter on (but only the first three, maybe, of the third season) and then the ones with Jo. So any meta I do on the subject is missing whole chunks of canon. I was actually really skeptical when I bought the first season because I wasn't sure how I'd feel about the show, but I'm actually liking this season more than what I've seen of the others (I think because it's more claustrophobic -- in the second season they have Ellen/Bobby/et al as SOME sort of support network, but right now they have no one but each other). And despite what I've heard about SPN being super-difficult to icon, I've been having easy fun.

I don't ship them, but I can see why people do

Yeah. I also don't ship Nathan/Peter, which seems to be the other big brother-incest pairing I see around, because I see NOTHING there. I mean, with Sam and Dean... they're so isolated and then there's stuff like in "Bugs" where they're mistaken for a couple and the show is just ASKING for it (like, you can kind of imagine a writer's room conversation where someone goes, "hmm, you realize online fandom has nothing to do with these guys, right?" and another person goes, "oh, we'll just have Dean slap Sam on the ass, that'll make the fangirls go wild." I mean, probably this didn't happen, BUT IF I HAD WRITTEN THE SHOW, you know, that would totally have been the genesis conversation for that scene) that I get it, even if I don't get it.

I just really don't like it when the sexual relationship is written as this romantic, revelatory thing, like, "I'm in love with you! OMG! *hearts and flowers*" because that just strikes me as wrong for the relationship

Yeah, exactly. I think this is why I CAN read some Wincest stuff if it's done in a way that somehow jives with what I see in canon. Which is why I think yours works for me, even if I'd rather just read DEAN/KARA (I think I was on vacation when I read that and thus haven't commented, but I will try to remember to go back and do so because OMG YES IT IS MADE OF WIN).

I mean, the show is All About family relationships, and it does them really well, I think, that push-pull/love-hate dynamic, where you may want to kill your sibling/parent, but nobody else is allowed to even look at them funny, and also how at first it's so easy to just fall back into old roles of being the sullen teenager or the peacemaker, or whatever it was you were the last time you were all together.

Yes, yes, yes. That's part of what I love about the show and by extension, I think, part of what really bothers me when it's gotten wrong in fic. I think the show actually does this pretty well. I can't think of many other shows where the family dynamic seems so realistic to me, other than perhaps the first season of Everwood.

I don't think anybody sticks around for the monster plots, you know?

I, uh, actually know this one guy. UNFORTUNATELY. To give you an idea of what he is like: His entire wardrobe consists of Hooters shirts and he enrolls in Women's Studies classes because, AND I QUOTE, "they're full of chicks!"

Which is one reason I don't ship him with Sam. (except when Sam is a girl, and oh god, I know! but I own my kinks.)

I have started the long odyssey of making my way through your girl!Sam fics. So far I've liked them (especially the one with the bikini and the one with the incubus... I thiiiiink I commented on at least one of those). I was finally swayed when I looked at your userpics and saw that the girl!Sam ones were all pictures of Katee Sackhoff... and yeah, I CAN TOTALLY GET BEHIND THAT, EVEN WITH THE INCEST.
25th-Aug-2008 07:25 pm (UTC)
wasn't sure how I'd feel about the show, but I'm actually liking this season more than what I've seen of the others (I think because it's more claustrophobic -- in the second season they have Ellen/Bobby/et al as SOME sort of support network, but right now they have no one but each other)

Interesting. Season 1 does have a claustrophobic feel, but I guess for me, the world still feels wide open for them - they don't know yet that the FBI is after them, John is still alive, Sam thinks he can go back to school, people seem to appreciate their help etc. That all kind of goes away later, until the world, even with Ellen and Bobby etc. in it, seems much bleaker and unfriendlier.

I get it, even if I don't get it.

Exactly. That's how I feel. I understand it - I read it and write it and can enjoy it - but I don't ship it.

I think this is why I CAN read some Wincest stuff if it's done in a way that somehow jives with what I see in canon. Which is why I think yours works for me, even if I'd rather just read DEAN/KARA (I think I was on vacation when I read that and thus haven't commented, but I will try to remember to go back and do so because OMG YES IT IS MADE OF WIN).

Hee! Thank you. Dean/Kara is all kinds of awesome hotassery. *g*

I can't think of many other shows where the family dynamic seems so realistic to me

Me, neither. Because it gets both the deep, unspoken, yet abiding love *and* the "you are so annoying I am going to break your face if you speak to me again" sides of it.

I have started the long odyssey of making my way through your girl!Sam fics. So far I've liked them (especially the one with the bikini and the one with the incubus... I thiiiiink I commented on at least one of those). I was finally swayed when I looked at your userpics and saw that the girl!Sam ones were all pictures of Katee Sackhoff... and yeah, I CAN TOTALLY GET BEHIND THAT, EVEN WITH THE INCEST.

hee! Thank you. And yeah, I think the hotness of Jensen + Katee is part of the reason I keep writing them, because she would just be a *perfect* person to be Sam if he were a girl. Sigh.
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20th-Aug-2008 01:22 am (UTC)
Muahahaha! OH JEHNT.
20th-Aug-2008 01:29 am (UTC)
I AM NOT SURE WHAT THIS IS EVIL-LAUGHING AT.
20th-Aug-2008 01:51 am (UTC)
Everything!
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